Georgina Phillips

This letter was sent by me to the Chair of Cardiff County Council Standards & Ethics Committee

Georgina Phillips
Hill House, Druidstone Road
Old St. Mellons,
Cardiff CF3 6XE

24th February 2009

Dear Mr. Hanuk,
I was a Labour Member of Cardiff County Council from 1999 – 2008, representing the Ward of Pontprennau & Old St. Mellons. Since losing the May 2008 election I have continued to play an active part in various issues, attending certain meetings of Cardiff County Council as an observer. I am trying to stay up to date with issues which I feel are of importance either to myself personally, the residents of Pontprennau & Old St. Mellons, or to the residents of the Capital City of Wales.
One of the major issues at present is of course education, and the School Reorganisation proposals. Having very much enjoyed being Labour Party spokesperson for education, I have continued to attend all possible education meetings as an observer.
One of the great regrets I have at present is the fact that I cannot attend meetings of the Schools Sub-Committee. These meetings are now being held behind closed doors, and members of the public were given no explanation as to why, or by whom this decision was made, and I have spoken with members of the public who have resigned from that committee after expressing serious concern about the situation. I would have to say that when the decision was made after the May 2008 election, I felt at the time that things did not bode well for the future of the education of our children in Cardiff.
On 12th January 2009 I attended a meeting of CCC Children & Young People Scrutiny committee. There had been a 'call-in' made by Councillor Ralph Cook in response to a decision of the Executive to build a new school on the site of the Eastern Leisure Centre in Llanrumney. There has been a great deal of concern expressed by many residents living in the area about these proposals, and so the Scrutiny Committee was meeting to discuss the request for the proposal to be referred back for re-consideration by the Executive.
I attended that meeting to observe, as did more than 200 other residents. It was a very long meeting, and sometimes a little heated, finishing some time after 19.00. At the end of the discussion a vote was taken on whether or not to refer back the proposals. The vote was four to five in favour of allowing the decision to proceed.
After the meeting I continued to check all information provided on the Council Website. Finally, just a few days ago I made another check, and the minutes of that particular meeting had been provided.
Having read them I can only say that I was appalled by the lack of content in the minutes. They had absolutely no bearing at all on what had actually happened at that meeting. There was no mention of the fact that there was even a vote taken.
The final paragraphs of that meeting simply stated that:-
'The Chairperson thanked the Panel for their comprehensive responses to Members’ questions. The Committee considered all the evidence received and discussed the key issues, and the best way forward for this item. In general, Members concluded that they did not wish to prolong the decision making process by formally referring the decision to Council or Executive for reconsideration.
AGREED – That following consideration of the decision of the Executive, the Committee agreed not to refer the decision back to the Executive, and therefore, under the call-in procedure, the decision could now take immediate effect.'
The statement implies that there was full agreement on this decision when in fact there was not.
I felt so incensed by the appalling inaccuracy of these minutes that I immediately contacted the Council to voice my concerns and to request that these minutes be challenged. I was of course informed that it was already too late for me to do that because the minutes had been agreed at the subsequent, regular meeting of the committee. The draft minutes of certain meetings are not made public on the Council’s Website until after they are ratified, after which of course they cannot be challenged.
Since members of the public are able to attend meetings to observe, why can they not also see the draft minutes? I am beginning to understand why the majority of members of the public have no wish to sit in on these meetings as an observer, indeed I am beginning to wonder myself - what is the point?
I was informed that I could have travelled down to County Hall and requested to see the draft minutes which I could have read and then commented. I have two problems with this suggestion. Firstly, where is the information informing members of the public of this fact? And secondly, since members of the public can read draft reports which are tabled at a Scrutiny Committee on the Council Website, and also the draft proposals of meetings of the Council Executive, including the draft minutes of the previous Executive meeting, why is it not possible for draft minutes of Scrutiny Committee meetings to be provided in the same way? In short, if the draft minutes are in the public domain, then why are they not published on the Council website? I strongly suspect it is simply to avoid public overview of contentious issues.
The whole idea of Scrutiny Committees is to question/challenge Executive proposals, with all members of a Scrutiny Committee listening to arguments with an open mind and voting accordingly.
I wish to express serious concern over the fact that these minutes clearly imply that the whole committee agreed that these proposals should go ahead. As an observer at that meeting, I do not accept that there was a unanimous agreement that this should happen.
In my opinion, there is a distinct political steer in these minutes.
It is for this reason that I am writing to request that the Standards & Ethics Committee look in to the situation with regard to both the reason why Scrutiny Committee draft minutes are not available on the Web, and to ascertain whether this could be brought about, and also to investigate the concern of there being political input in to how Scrutiny Committee minutes are being recorded.

Regards

Georgina Phillips

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20th April 2009

Dear Ms Phillips
Thank you for your letter dated 24th February 2009. As your letter set out a number of concerns regarding the Council's decision-making processes, I asked the Council's Monitoring Officer and the Clerk to the Council to provide me with their views on the matters you raise. Having received their views I am now able to respond to the various points you raise and these are set out below.
With regard to your concerns about being unable to attend meetings of the Schools Sub-Committee, I am informed that meetings of the Schools Sub Committee are, open to the public and the dates of such meetings are displayed on Notice Boards and included on the Council's website. I also understand that the agenda, minutes and reports are available to the public within 3 working days of the meeting. I am informed, however, that the Members of the Sub Committee do occasionally have informal briefings from officers which are not, as they are not decision-making meetings, public meetings.
Your letter refers to a vote taken at the Children & Young People Scrutiny Committee on 12th January. I am informed that votes are not normally taken at Scrutiny Meetings as they are non decision making bodies. However, a decision was required on this occasion because an Executive decision had been called in for scrutiny. You will be aware that, after some debate, Committee members were asked to indicate whether to refer the decision back to the Executive or allow it to take immediate effect. A vote was therefore taken to establish the Committees' views on this important matter.
With regard to your comments regarding the minutes of the Scrutiny Committee, I am informed that, as was the practice when you were a County Councillor, the minutes of all Committees are drafted and submitted to the next meeting for approval on their accuracy, and, once they are approved, they appear on the Council's website. In any event, the minutes are not, I understand, a matter for public challenge, but for the Committee members to approve, or amend, as a correct record at their next meeting. I understand that draft minutes would not be generally available for inspection but could be made available as part of a freedom of Information request.
The Clerk to the Council is content that the minutes were an accurate reflection of the meeting and that they were consistent with the general "style" of Scrutiny Committee minutes that have been established over many years. The minutes set out statements from Cllr Ralph Cook, who was responsible for the call-in; the Chief Schools Officer; the Executive Member for Education and questions from Members of the Committee. Although the minutes did not refer to a vote being taken, this is, I am informed, consistent with custom and practice where votes are not recorded in Committeeminutes unless it was a "recorded vote", or, immediately after a vote has been taken, a member asks that his/her vote is recorded in the minutes.
You express concern that "the minutes imply that the whole committee agreed that the proposals should go ahead". I understand, as suggested earlier in this letter, that the matter was determined by a simple majority vote conducted in accordance with the Council's Constitution. As no member requested that their vote be recorded the minutes refer to the fact that "in general, Members concluded that they did not wish to prolong the decision making process. ..."
The Clerk to the Council was very concerned at your suggestion that there may have been political input into the drafting of the minutes has reassured me that this was certainly not the case. With regard to your comments regarding draft minutes not being available on the Council's website, the Clerk to the Council informs me that he is already investigating the possibility of including draft minutes in the papers that are published at least 3 days in advance of Council Committees.
I hope that this clarifies the position with regard to the concerns you set out in your letter.

Kind regards

Yours sincerely

Signed on behalf of Akmal Hanuk, Chair of Standards & Ethics Committee.